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GW2 PvP
Joe
Guild Wars 2 PvP

A short video showing Guild Wars 2 PvP. At first I thought the battleground was just like AB, but it's quite different.

In Guild Wars 1, you made a PvP specific char that was already max level and had all the equipment that you had unlocked on your account from other chars through PvE. I don't know if Guild Wars 2 will be the same, but TB started each character at max level. It might have been because of the beta, but I don't know.

Gear hardly mattered in Guild Wars 1, so it was never a problem to be given a high level character since it was all about skill anyway. So I don't think it will be a bad thing if Guild Wars 2 turns out the same.

In Guild Wars 1, PvP was originally based around guilds fighting each other in each other's guild hall. It made it quite restricting for people that didn't have very big guilds, until they made the Factions campaign, where you sided with either the Kurzicks or the Luxons and fought for them. There was still, however, the problem of everyone picking one faction, and the side with the fewer numbers were left with ridiculous battle queues. Hopefully they've found a way around that in Guild Wars 2.
 
Tom
finally got my hands on this at the london eurogamer expo and it didn't disappoint, infact I want it out NOW!! more than ever XD. from what iv read and seen from the pvp side so far it looks like its going to be pretty awesome. much more interaction with the environment, for example a ranged getting up onto of building to get an advantage or smashing through windows to gain entry to building through different routes. as well as environmental weapons like catapults.

not even in beta and the class balance already seems solid. swtor looks ok but i think GW2 is gonna be the next step in mmo's. the only thing that concerns me even slightly is how the cash shop will work, however iv had nothing but good experiences with arena net so im not all that worried.

gonna be a busy year for sure, swtor, diablo 3, bf3, GW2 and the next instalment of starcraft.
sigcdn.siglaunch.com/sigs/wow/8/6/1/3/9/4586139yVhBx.png
"Tanking is skill, Dps is science, Healing is art"
 
Luthar
Gah i want it nao!
" I, I don't know why... But for some apparent reason, I can't stand women with sexy bodies. On a side note, flat-chested girls like you have absolutely no effect on me."
/Laharl, Disgaea: Hour of Darkness
 
Joe
Yeah, I'm getting pretty turned on too.
 
Alchy
Without the gearing up component, PvP becomes basically similar to playing a FPS game, but with 3rd person view, and less controllability?
i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv94/Shendaynor/AlchySigFirelands-1.png
 
Joe
I'm not sure about less controllability. You can walk forwards, backwards, side to side and jump in a 1st person, too.

As for gear; the way I see it, without the gearing up part you're just relying on your skill. I always found that a nice aspect of GW1, since you weren't just losing against the people that had camped BGs longer, and beating the people that hadn't camped it as long as you. You were losing against people that were better players, and beating those not as good as you.

Still, I couldn't really tell much from that video about that, since it's beta and he might have just been given max level chars to get straight into the PvP. The same as what you get on test realms on WoW. So you might have to level up and gear up your char to do PvP with. I haven't looked too much into it.
 
Tom
the game will bring everyone's BASE STATS and gear to the same level when you enter a pvp match (not sure about world vs world tho im pretty sure it applies there too). the only difference between say 2 warriors will be how they've set there stat points up and there weapon selection.

progression in gw2 at least from a pvp point of view is more towards titles and cosmetic things, not things like gear that can unbalance the game. so if your the type that likes to grind gear so you can enter a bg and tank half a wsg group of green/blued geared players while /dancing in your epic pvp set then yes you will be disappointed. but those that enjoy pvp for the actual pvp then this should make games far more balanced and interesting.

so if you have no interest in pve whatso ever you can make a lvl 1 and do nothing but pvp and not have to worry about leveling at all.

gearing and gear progression will still have a place in pve though.
sigcdn.siglaunch.com/sigs/wow/8/6/1/3/9/4586139yVhBx.png
"Tanking is skill, Dps is science, Healing is art"
 
Alchy
I just think if I wanted that type of environment, I'd play FPS game for it Smile Theyre far more suited to ppl who want to call the 'skill' card, as they actually require you to manually target stuff youre shooting at, rather than select and press various buttons whilst pointing in vaguely the correct direction to watch your target die Smile
Personally, in mmo PvP, I enjoy both the challenge of gearing up, vs better geared and skilled opponents, and then the chance to improve my character, both my skill in playing it, and the gear it carries. Which, to be honest is largely what seperates most mmo's from a lot of other games; PvP is much like PvE, in that when you start (in raid or bg/arena), you die a lot, spend lots of time respawning, chasing around randomely and working out whats going on. You then work on your gear, spec, and skills, to improve your chances to kill (bosses, or enemy players), and eventually you either get your raid instance on farm, or become a successful pvper, due to a combination of gear, and skills youve learned whilst acquiring said gear. Then you move on to new challenges, which is HC raiding, or new content for PvEers, or Arena or rated BG for PvPers. And ofc sometimes you go back to old raids, or old BG just for a bit of fun, and get to feel epic, cos of the time youve put in, gearing and learning. Which is the mmo experience, for most. Im not denying the chance to login once in a while and pwn ppl on a level playin field will ofc be fun, but, I dont see it being as long lasting in this format. FPS games already have this pretty well covered Smile
Edited by Alchy on 15-10-2011 10:45
i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv94/Shendaynor/AlchySigFirelands-1.png
 
Joe

Quote


call the 'skill' card, as they actually require you to manually target stuff youre shooting at, rather than select and press various buttons whilst pointing in vaguely the correct direction to watch your target die


I see what you mean now, about FPS gameplay. But when you think about it, where the gameplay is different, it's different. And that's what's different. (Sorry if that doesn't make sense, but it makes sense to me. Pfft)

As for the skill card, you still need to out-think your opponent. In FPS games, you're usually trying to shoot the other guy before he shoots you. There's still the "don't use a grenade in a tight spot" part of skill that separates people with brain cells to people without them, but past having good aim, that's as far as I see the need for skill going.
When it comes to MMO style games, you've got too many different spells, abilities, trinkets, etc. to use to worry about aiming with them. And too many other things of things like debuffs, stuns, snares and roots to think about escaping. If you had all of these in an FPS, then no one'd have time to be aiming. There'll never really be a need for aiming spells in MMO type games (other than on siege weapons and grenades, etc.) obviously, so that'll never be brought in. Unless some genius gaming designer thinks of something that would work.

However, I don't see how the two can't be combined in a way I think GW2 is sort of doing. The third person feel and lack of needing to aim of an MMO combined with instantly being on the same gear level as the people you'll encounter.

As for not seeing it to be long lasting; yeah, I can see what you mean. Not really having something to work toward makes it boring quickly, and not needing to gear gives you no way to prepare for higher level play. However, if you still have to set your own stats, then you're still having to add some level of intelligence to preparing your character before getting to it. Although that will probably be theorycrafted to **** and someone will find the 'one' spec that's best for PvP eventually, but that happens with all games, I suppose. But ignoring specs for a moment; I feel that if my Druid was suddenly given the best current gear, as well as everyone else I face or fight beside, I wouldn't really miss much when I entered the arena, since everything up until then is just me getting killed by people that started gearing sooner than I did. I can only really justify the point in not missing gearing up by saying that you do it by mooching around in BGs nowadays.

But still, it's all unfinished so we can't be sure of how it turns out. GW1 PvP was how I pointed it out to be, GW2 PvP might be quite different.

In the end, I think it's going to be more about knowing the class you're playing and how to beat your opponents' classes by knowing the mechanics better. Personally, I don't think that removing the gearing up part of PvP is too much of a bad thing.




One last thing; in GW1, bows had a lot of things you had to take into consideration. The amount of damage you did with it would increase as you got closer to your opponent. Gravity would effect the arrow's flight, and pull it into the ground, so you had to make sure they weren't out of your range. Being on higher ground gave you a damage boost that scaled with how high up you were. Also, the type of bow made quite a few differences; like how a shortbow would do more damage up close, but would have crap range, while a longbow would do normal damage for a longer distance, but wouldn't match the damage of a shortbow. The range you also had to estimate yourself as you attacked something, since all bows have almost infinite reach, but do no more than 1 damage past their set range limit. All bow types had a difference in speed, which effected a lot of different things like weapon enhancements giving a flat damage increase (doing +8 damage every second was more than +8 damage every 2 seconds), so your choice of bow made a lot of things different. All of that gave something to really think about when playing a class with a bow and took quite an amount of knowledge to know how to choose what bow to use where and when for the best damage. I'm hoping something like this will be brought to GW2, so that say, an axe would do more sweeping damage than a short sword, but less piercing damage, and different kinds of physical damage was reduced by different kinds of armour, or whatever. I've seen that in other games and again it adds some kind of needed knowledge to gearing up, even though you can only gear up a little.


Sorry for this mammoth essay, I didn't expect it to get so long Pfft
 
Tom
i do understand where your coming from as far as progression in pvp, however there's a few things which i cant really agree on.

firstly the comparison of rpg and fps. fps is twitch combat, the quickest hand wins (apart from mw where its the luckiest nade >.> Pfft) in rpg's getting the jump on someone doesn't mean a kill, a good player can come back from a bad situation. tbh a better comparison would be games like bloodline champions and the dota rip offs/ copies / w/e.

secondly is the impact of gear in general in a pvp environment. having a sense of progression in a environment based around teamplay and individual skill is great, but when that progression directly impacts the outcome of that game and to an extent negating the previous factors it can not only be frustrating for the team that PLAYED better but also the point of that competitive environment altogether.

i think its definitively a gamble but a good one. those that play pvp for pvp will not be missing the grind to get to that point where the better player wins. for those that play the game mostly for pve with some pvp on the side, or going in for a mix i think it might feel odd for a while not having a set of gear for it, however it will mean those not wanting to spend large amounts of time on grinding out the gear can jump right in without being at a disadvantage before the game has even begun. also keep in mind that although gear is not a factor of pvp there will still be titles acheivments and other goodies to be had from pvp so there is some form of goal there for those that want it.

GW2 devs are trying to make an mmo with as little grind as possible while still having enough content ready and available for players to jump into and spend as much or little time as they want playing.
sigcdn.siglaunch.com/sigs/wow/8/6/1/3/9/4586139yVhBx.png
"Tanking is skill, Dps is science, Healing is art"
 
Tom
damnit nike beat me to it and his wall of text crits harder than mine XD
sigcdn.siglaunch.com/sigs/wow/8/6/1/3/9/4586139yVhBx.png
"Tanking is skill, Dps is science, Healing is art"
 
Tom
one last thing that is sort of sad that it hasn't been pointed out yet considering were talking about games. FUN. there aiming to make there game engaging and fun to play. when i do some pvp on wow or most mmo's for that matter my primary thought isn't about joining for the fun i get out of the experience, its that I'm 200 honor from my tasty epic helm and one more bg and I'm finally done XD. there's the odd moment i get a laugh out of bg's when i join up with tbo member's and we screw around but most of the time its the epic helm Pfft.

I'm sure we all have single player games we go back to every now and then because we love them, or there's a certain mission which is just awesome to play, it would be great if that could be pulled off in an mmo so the primary reason to do it isn't to get some purple pixles or to make that little crafting bar go up +1 but because you get some enjoyment from it.

don't get me wrong some grind can be ok, and working for rewards isn't bad and fun and challenge aren't mutually exclusive but am i wrong in saying mmo's do have a tendency to lean on those a little too much.
sigcdn.siglaunch.com/sigs/wow/8/6/1/3/9/4586139yVhBx.png
"Tanking is skill, Dps is science, Healing is art"
 
Alchy
I do see the appeal to the PvE gamer, who is really casual about PvP, I just see serious PvPers preferring the old fashioned approach to PvP, ie, gearing, as they mostly play PvP anyway, doing the grind isnt often an issue, and it gives them a chance to build an epic toon (which is what keeps us coming back, and keeps us playing this game, rather than switching to every new one that comes out) I see it along the lines, of having PvE toons with a set gearlevel, and getting to run instances with that, just for the chance to kill the bosses. And yeh, first time would be fun. But, wheres the incentive to go back and do it again? MMO's, and even more specifically blizzard, no doubt spend a lot of time and money, on working out the right balance between grind, gear, and progress, to keep the maximum number of people playing the game; and, taking a large element out of that, is a brave move, and likely to scare off a lot of people who are used to the genre. It might, of course attract some gamers from other types of games such as FPS, as its a more accessible way of getting into the whole MMO PvP experience but I can see them also, making the transition to gear based PvP at some stage if they got to enjoy the playstyle. It just offers more rewards for your time.
I know GW2 isnt WoW, and theyre going out of their way to make differences, to attract people to 'not just another WoW clone', but I personally feel they may not be making all the right moves. I also really dont like the PvE (seems to appear on PvP toons too) 'My Story' bollox.. I know who I am, I dont want some 'bla bla' RP stuff added to my toon to make me feel 'special' Smile I'm not faulting the game mechanics, some of that stuff looks really interesting, just, some of the things they do and the differences they choose to promote it.
i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv94/Shendaynor/AlchySigFirelands-1.png
 
Tom
wow lots to touch on there Pfft

firstly hardcore pvpers preferring some form of progression on there character to make it last a lil longer. this one will be interesting to see, there's games which have very hardcore followings like cs-css / wc rts series / starcraft that have no real progression other than ladders. then games like gw1 / wow / LoL / BLC / MW / BF that do have progression of some sort. all have had allot of success, the question is, is it the progression or lack of that keep them playing or the gameplay and competitiveness. if they are successful at bringing out the esports side of the pvp it could be great if not then well have to see.

secondly the storyline. gw has always been very story riven, it wouldn't really be gw game without having a strong connection with the lore. I guess you can look at it from three directions, one is that its going to mean a different play through on each character adding depth to them and giving a sense of individuality in a genre known for having next to none. secondly is to see it purely as some extra content to go through and enjoy the fun stuff in it even if you aren't paying a whole lot of attention to the actual storyline. thirdly that you really cbfa with any storyline and in that case you are more than able to completely ignore the story quests (which would be a shame considering its an mmoRPG), but you don't have to be an rper to enjoy a storyline.

lastly is the fact they promote these things. when they decided to make the game they looked at what had become standard in mmo's in general and tried to shake it up and still bring out something familiar to mmo players. introducing a strong connection to storyline without smothering you in quests, making lvling not feel like a chore, bringing the balanced pvp that they had in gw1 and putting effort into making good enough to be considered for esports gaming. these are the things that are going to make or break the game, as i said a gamble but imo a good one.

like I said it'll be interesting to see how this game does with the changes its making and if/how the genre changes in reaction to the popularity. what i will say is if it doesn't work out it would be shame to see the reaction being that mmo's now and for future release stick firmly to the current generic format to ensure some form of success instead of trying new things.

think that's everything Pfft writing in a rush during lunch break XD
sigcdn.siglaunch.com/sigs/wow/8/6/1/3/9/4586139yVhBx.png
"Tanking is skill, Dps is science, Healing is art"
 
Zeoan
hello, long time no see.

Bubbler told me about this thread and i just have to jump in. Smile

WvWvW as bubbler said, scales up level and attribute points but gear is still needed.

gear is more importiant in gw2 than gw1, but not as much as WoW.
as gear has stats on it.
also gear can be obtained thru, exploration, crafting, dungeons, pvp.
each one will have different looks and styles. Smile

and i also got a hands on the Guardian.... OMG!!!! i <3 it!

as for me stopping wow, figured i cant do raids due to times and other aspects are quite repetative. (TB is very fun, apart from that multiboxing mofo!).

i would love to see a TBO guild in gw2. as i plan to spend as much time as i can in gw2.

and like Nike and Bubbs... im freaking MENTAL about this game!!!11!!
a pvp argument comes down to this:
Dear Dev,
nerf Rock, Paper is fine.
yours
Sissors.
 
Tom
I sincerely apologise for bringing "IT" to the forums... : /
sigcdn.siglaunch.com/sigs/wow/8/6/1/3/9/4586139yVhBx.png
"Tanking is skill, Dps is science, Healing is art"
 
Alchy
I feel if I change game, it will likely be for an FPS one, assuming one comes out with a chance of good gameplay, and good community. I'll be keeping my eye on Planetside 2, and seeing how that shapes up, I think.
Failing that, if WoW 2 looks fun, might carry on playing that, once WoW 1 dies off Smile Really its about the community. I dont play WoW so much for the game now, as for the people in it.
i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv94/Shendaynor/AlchySigFirelands-1.png
 
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