The trailer seemed perfectly sufficient to judge the claims but I went on to watch the movie. It's not pieces of a puzzle they are connecting but rather dots which they distort and pick for the picture they want to obtain. They also keep going when they run out of dots.
The claims they make can be divided into a few categories:
Generally known truths like that wars are rarely if ever started with honest reasons or that the Bush family made some of their wealth dealing with the nazis. In some cases a truth is presented in a manner that gives completely the wrong impression of the entire issue like with american troops not being allowed to enter Kambodja during the Vietnam war.
Second come claims that are not supported by evidence and are rather far out or in very bad taste like that Pearl Harbour or 9/11 was desired and intentionally provoked by the american government.
The last category would be the completely absurd like that all income taxes ever collected in the US would have gone directly to private banks and none of it used for government expences.
The movie has a repetetive pattern. First a couple of truths (often twisted or partial), then something from the second category and lastly some absurdity. The movie is more farcical than factual. The flawed reasoning is the normal for conspiracy theories: assume intent behind all events.
In general the arguments given are weak or dishonest. Often the main claim is just offered on faith. The method of the presentation is not of arguing a case but of trying to convert with shock.
I'm not sure what is being refered to as the "main idea that Zeitgeist is trying to tell" but find it very unlikely that I would agree with it being an absolute truth.
Moving on to the venus project the description they give of how they are not advocating communism seems to be more or less exactly what communism was always advocated as. Blind faith in technology was a central part of if.
"Communism is electrical lighting in all homes" -Lenin
The problem I tried to bring forth remains that the Earth is limited. There simply isn't enough to meet everyones desire for luxuries. You can't automate everything and you can't distribute things evenly to everyone. The problem is not solvable as there need not be any solution. Likely there isn't as the total amount of a given luxury is smaller than the number of people wanting it.
I already watched a movie against my better judgement so won't bother to read the resume. If the guy doesn't know what a quantum leap is he shouldn't call for one. A quantum leap is the smallest possible change in a system. An electron changing to an adjacent orbital. He probably should have used the term paradigm shift even if that is over used as it is.
The point about collecting funds was specifically for their test project of building a community without money. They want money to build a community that is to work without money. The principle is flawed since such a community should be able to build and maintain itself to prove it's viability.
An ideology is the elevation of some concept of goodness above all other concerns. It can be a guiding principle but reality doesn't cater for any ideals and it is to reality that any actual policy must be applied. With a concept like the venus project it is not possible to take take parts and reject others. The argument depends on all central aspects of it being viable.
Technology being able to solve all problems - Flawed
Unlimited clean energy - Flawed
Education able to change human nature as wanted - Flawed
Perfect distribution of services and goods - Flawed
I would argue that all central aspects of it are not compatible with reality and as such the project is doomed to fail.
Well if you say that the claims about 9/11 are not supported with evidence i suggest you watch the movie again mate.
About blind faith in technology, Jacque Fresco gave the answers about this in Zeitgeist Addendum as well. So perhaps you might wanna watch that one too if you want the answer mate.
You're saying that they dont have any evidences or strong arguments however you don't bring anything more than that either. All you're saying is "it's not true, arguments are weak etc etc." So where's your evidence? Tell me a single proof, even a weak argument about 9/11 being done by terrorists. Then i'll accept that this whole thing is a big fat lie.
I found it funny that you explained what quantum leap is actually. The guy is giving lectures in universities about this, explaining the whole thing and you're saying that he used a wrong phrase? Obviously Fresco didnt use it scientifically. And quantum leap doesn't mean "the smallest possible change in the system" but it means " An abrupt change or step, especially in method, information, or knowledge ". The important word here is "abrupt". He could also use "paradigm shift" but it wouldnt give the meaning of "abrupt". And trust me mate i think Jacque Fresco knows what a quantum leap is both scientifically and figuretively. So do i, as i'm studying chemical engineering myself.
If the energy is renewable (and i think we both know that it is) how can you say that the earth is limited? However i agree on you that distributing the energy and everything evenly is a big problem since "human factor" comes to play. And we can't know how people react to it. But Fresco himself says that the theory is not perfect. It's just an alternative for the monetary system. You think monetary system doesnt have any loop holes?
About collecting funds, Jacque Fresco is a great engineer and a futurist but unless he can fart books and dvds out of his ass he'll need the money to fund his projects. It's ironic but is also a fact. So i dont really understand why collecting funds is that big deal. What you're trying to say, as i understood from your post, is they do it for money. Then how do you explain the fact that you can actually download or watch the movies via streaming on their very own official website? They're simply telling "Hey guys you can watch the movies here, download them if you want but if you want to help us with funding our projects you can buy them also."
If you're fine working hours like a slave and not get what you deserve, if you can ignore the children starving to death in africa, and in the meanwhile some people with power (that you work for, in reality) having threesome in a milk bath, if you can watch the news everyday about innocent people being killed by american soldiers in Iraq, if you can accept the fact that Afghanistan is now a drug heaven, (and other countless examples that i won't write here) and still live happily then you can continue what you were doing before.
Edited by Maleficus on 10-09-2009 07:36
"Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it."
not gonna go into details about this part, cause i havent seen it yet, but i will
anyways, Altzu, if everyone through time disregard claims and ideas with some merit to em like lunacy and madness, we would still be in the stoneage my friend. The poor guy who invented the wheel would get his ass cursed out and thrown in the loony bin.
anyways, keep it up boys, me likey Edited by Gangsta on 10-09-2009 06:25
Hit them little niggas with a freeze-pop, represent
Another Famous quote by Org when he's healing - "Its not my fault the tank dies. its his own fault. He got hit to much"
So! Let me jump in head first here having not actually watched the movie, and have only read what you guys have written.
Firstly I agree with Mike, this debate is awesome - and more importantly hasn't erupted into a flame war
Everyone has a right to believe what they want, and to also express opinion. There are people out there who's goal is to get you to believe what they believe, because they believe that their solution is the right one - regardless to any facts (true or otherwise)...The idea of a non-monitary system where everyone uses clean fuel and is never hungry etc etc is all very well and good in theory, but it will never happen - and because of "the man", it will never work. Man as a species is destructive, selfish and violent. All the scientific reasoning in the world can never change the fact that no matter what, we will never be happy unless we have a bigger stick than the other guy. people who try to fight this, and to correct it are quite frankly swimming upstream without aquatic form.
War, hunger, suffering - i would say 90% is based on the desire for control (and the other 10% to keep that control) - This cycle is and forever will be how the world is. If we can't stop war...how can we all live together as "one world"?
MY prediction of how the world will progress...
We'll carry on as we are, with the economy in a slow yet steady decline - until it crashes all together. People in power will try to help "the people", but it will fail. The world will plunge into chaos until one day one country crosses the line with another (probably america will be involved in this) and there will be nuclear war. Good night Vienna - Elvis will indeed have left the building.
I don't agree or disagree with anyone, like i said they have a right to their opinions - but I personally think trying to fix the world is pointless because as long as there is man there will be conflict.
I didn't watch the video as I said before, not through laziness but so i could be unbaised and indifferent. The POINT of these videos is to get you to beleive them, they are phsycologically engineered to be that way. If someone put there mind to it they could convince people anything they want.
And FYI Quantum Leap was and old TV show...and it was awesome!
wall of text over - Hedwinkle out /waves
Edited by Heddy on 10-09-2009 10:06
Hed mate i respect everyone's opinions here. Even tho you haven't seen the movies you actually have a point there. The "Man Factor" may be the biggest problem in this theory tbh. However like Fresco says in Zeitgeist Addendum, there's no such thing as human nature, there's human behaviour and human behaviours change all the time. They depend on the society you live in. That's why the priority in Venus Project is education. Where children will be taught how to behave to eachother, how to live in peace and how to solve the problems. Now imagine a whole generation being raised with this concept.
This is why i believe it's not an utopia but a theory. If you believe in mankind anything can come true mate.
And yeh that show was awesome.
Edited by Maleficus on 10-09-2009 14:26
"Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it."
me and ko sat down to watch the venus project zeitgeist movie.
extremely intressting! its the Utopia. Its what everyone has always dreamed of. Its the world where everyone has the right to all resources, like housing, food, videogames, education etc etc. at will! whenever they want. Cause there is no currency of money, there is no banks, no costs. A world without crime, without laws, cause there is no crime. crime will be prevented by changing how we think and edcuate us. It is truely the dream.
And honestly, sadly, it will probably never ever be more, then a dream.
They talk about almost erasing labour or to about 90 % of it, about we will educate ourselfs to the level that we can produce technology that will be able to do most of our work. like medical operations, construction etc etc.
but - there will always need someone that programs these machines to do. how to build this, how to operate that, how much it should cut in a medical operations etc etc. IF NOT THAT...we are talking about AI beings, that can think, program, act, operate and fix itself, and its job. now wait a minute here...
A level of technology THAT advanced, that can make choices by itself, to the degree that it can do the most/all advanced jobs, at the right time, in the right way, and to almost perfection, without answering to anyone AND IS COMPLETLY SELF-SUFFICENT...Is it only me who smells Terminator here? technology that advance would not answer to us any longer then you would accept being bossed around by your own boss, before you answer. and in a world were we are completly dependent on this level of machinary, would you wanna play with that ****?
i wouldnt atleast haha.
and the more important part. And i understand the parerels altzu made with communismen now abit more, is that you would have to have all, not just one, but ALL people dropping belifs from the "old" world. I can honestly say that you will never ever see the world rejecting their religions. maybe some, but not ALL. all of Iran throwing away Islam? yeah...that will be the day.
My point is, that as soon as someone says, well you CANT belive in your religion, you HAVE to belive in this, our new world, then you have a dictatorship. or more precise, Communism.
anyways, sorry for the wall of text. It is a super intressting watch, and if it EVER happend as a test project, in any country, i would move thier immidaitly, cause i would be willing to belive. but i think, in the end, sadly, it will just be a Utopia.
people are stubborn. and even if everything else would work, it would be the mind numbing blindness that is religion that people would never be able to forget. and if you were to have two camps, belivers of the project, and belivers of relgion, it would only lead to one thing....
War.
Thanks for your time
Much love Mike
Edited by Gangsta on 30-09-2009 06:54
Hit them little niggas with a freeze-pop, represent
Another Famous quote by Org when he's healing - "Its not my fault the tank dies. its his own fault. He got hit to much"
all in all..my oppinion is that we always need good utopias..why? because it's a vision.. u may not always hit the target from the bulls eye.. but u higher your bar a bit more.. and in this world of dis-utopias we definitely need some good brainstorming.. but i must take the side of mike's point of view.. cause it's the basic human nature.. and the basic reason of the other alternatives to capitalism didn't work .. machines, hi tech, self-automation..
all is great but with one .. big .. inevitable faillure : man ..
a quote from the movie minority report : "..But if there's a flaw, it's human. It always is."
I played Classic until I was nearly level 60. It needs The Burning Crusade really for me though. I am lurking around Daggerspine again for a while, trying to get used to the changes lol
4,234,892 unique visits 
sorry mate - i meant it in a general kinda way 
technology that advance would not answer to us any longer then you would accept being bossed around by your own boss, before you answer. and in a world were we are completly dependent on this level of machinary, would you wanna play with that ****? 
